Jump to content

Number of Drives Per Game


Paul Kian
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hi Coaches and Forumites,

I'm trying to finalize some rules for my Solitaire league, and I'm debating on using a set number of Drives per team (kind of like Baseball Innings), verses using a time clock or score limit. I know in "actual" Football, the NFL seems to range between 10-12 drives per team each year, and the College game runs closer to 13-14. I don't think these numbers include Kickoff/Punt/Fumble Returns or Pick Sixes, but I digress.

However, I'm interested in what YOU all seem to average. How many drives do you typically have per Electric Football game? Do any of you also use a set number of Drives (or Snaps) per game?

I'm leaning towards doing the following:

(1) 10 drives per Team (so 20 per game) with Pick Sixes/Fumble Return TDs/etc counting as a Drive for the Defensive team's total.

(2) Kickoffs only taking place for the last 3 drives per Team (to speed up the game but to still salvage Onside Kicks and other Special Teams "Twists of Fate"), and

(3) An "Overtime" similar to college ball, but with ties allowed after 5 "One-and-One" drives starting at the "Quarterfield" line (the 12.5 yard line on my 50 yard field) and 5 additional "penalty kick" field goals have been attempted, also from the Quarterfield line....yeah I know, I'm letting some soccer slip into the mix, I was a former Punter/Midfielder in High School. Please forgive me. 😆

I'm open to any suggestions you all may have as well. I'm pretty new to this game, so I apologise if I'm missing something that's glaringly obvious.

Thanks,

PK

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Paul,  I don't use a set number of drives per game, but rather a set number of plays per quarter.  I run 30 plays per quarter, which includes plays from scrimmage, punts,  and kickoffs (if returned).  I like to include kickoffs and punts in my games (mainly because I was a kick and punt returner in high school) as there is strategy in those plays as well. Plays that would normally stop the clock (penalties, injuries on the field, incomplete passes, getting out of bounds, kickoffs out of the endzone or not returned, and time outs (3 per half)) do not count as a play.  I like doing it this way, because it allows for teams to control the ball and the clock (or not). 😊  All things being equal, each team would get about 60 plays per game, although, often it does not work out that way, depending on whether the ground game is working or the passing game is working for each team.  For overtimes, I play one extra 30 play quarter with two time outs per team.  Not sure this would work for many people here, as most comments seem to lean toward speeding up the game.  Since I'm retired, I'm not much worried about time.  I keep stats on all my players on each team and track them through their careers in my league.  As a result, my games generally take about 3 weeks to finish and my seasons (16 games for 16 teams) take about 10  years to complete. I know that sounds crazy, but that's how I do it.  Since I'm not worrying about having the latest players in my league (my current teams include players from the 60s though the 90s), it works for me. Not sure this is helpful, but thought I'd throw my 2 cents in anyway. 😊

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, RickLM30 said:

Paul,  I don't use a set number of drives per game, but rather a set number of plays per quarter.  [....] Not sure this is helpful, but thought I'd throw my 2 cents in anyway. 😊

Thanks Rick, that's actually another good option. Your League sounds like it would be a great for people who are stat hounds, like me. 😁

I was thinking about doing Play counts at first, but I figured that would be a bit more granular to keep up with. Then again, it could be argued that I'm already being granular by doing Drive counts. 😆 Since it's going to be played on an Arena Ball 50 yard field (just bought the metal today!), the drives are going to be much shorter- probably around 8-10 snaps per drive. I could just do a Snap Count of 20 per Team each quarter and thus something like 80 per Team each Game....that seems a bit high, but I'll chew on the math better a bit later. 😁

I will fully admit that I'm trying to make a shorter game vs. a full 3 hour game like on TV, but I'm also trying to have a realistic sense of time and not do just one or two Drives per quarter like I've seen some Coaches do (not that there's anything wrong with doing it that way of course, I understand having 32 teams can really make game time a precious commodity!)

As a fellow special teamster myself, I definitely don't want to forego that aspect either. The only reason I was thinking about cutting to just the final possessions being kickoffs, besides the aforementioned time concern, is that most teams just kick Touchbacks in the first half anyway. Since I'm playing a 50 yard field though, I could keep the Kickoffs in full-time since there's eventually going to be a Rebound net back there.... and I like the AFL's "No Fair Catch or Kneel Down" Rule too. 🤔

My target is to fit 4 games in a weekend, since I have 8 teams over 2 Leagues. A season would thus be 10 weekends total, including a two round playoff. If I can, I'd like to get around 45 minutes to an hour per non-OT game. If I can get a camera that doesn't cause absolute misery, I'll even film the games. 😁

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 games in a weekend is a high goal.  I have enough trouble doing 2 games in a day if I am behind schedule.  I am retired and have nothing else to do and playing one game takes a lot out of me.  To play my conferences out, I have to play 80 games.  I hope to finish up in the next week to be done before the real football season, if it is to be played.  I use 10 play quarters and my games run about 2 to 2 and a half hours.  So far I have played about 185 hours since April.  Good luck.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, The System said:

4 games in a weekend is a high goal.  I have enough trouble doing 2 games in a day if I am behind schedule.  I am retired and have nothing else to do and playing one game takes a lot out of me.  To play my conferences out, I have to play 80 games.  I hope to finish up in the next week to be done before the real football season, if it is to be played.  I use 10 play quarters and my games run about 2 to 2 and a half hours.  So far I have played about 185 hours since April.  Good luck.

Good point, 4 a weekend might be a bit too ambitious. I'm going to still do 4 games a "Week" for scheduling purposes, as I only have 8 teams and 32 games (each team doing a Home & Away series with the other 3 teams in their "League"), but most likely I'll actually do a couple games a week at most and just release the videos altogether as a "Week".

Unfortunately, I'm only 29 and thus I work a full time 9-5 so the weekdays are not super conducive to a lot of games, but I might be able to fit one or two games in during the weekdays, especially if this quarantine ramps up in my state. I'm not in a huge rush timewise, but I would like to keep to 1 season per year and vice versa.

So far it seems like Play Count is a common metric, so I might lean towards that instead of Drives. Thanks for the responses so far! 😁

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Paul,  Yeah, I'm old and my league has been in existence since 1966, so I have lots of stats on the players.  I'm in my 7th season (5th games for my 16 teams), so I've got a ways to go.  It's fun to look back at the stats, since I keep stats on each player by season, so I can track them from year to year.  Some of them have been in my league for all 7 seasons.  I started out with only 5 teams in my first season, but somehow ended up with 16 by the start of season number 5.  Not sure that was the best move on my part. 😊 I'm 69 now and started this season in 2018, so it will be interesting to see if I'm still around to see the end of it! 😊 (My wife says I'd better be!)  Your league sounds like fun, but I just can't bring myself to install rebound nets and since I'm playing on a 4'x2' field, my kickers don't always reach the endzone.😊

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/9/2020 at 7:57 PM, RickLM30 said:

Paul,  Yeah, I'm old and my league has been in existence since 1966, so I have lots of stats on the players.  I'm in my 7th season (5th games for my 16 teams), so I've got a ways to go.  It's fun to look back at the stats, since I keep stats on each player by season, so I can track them from year to year.  Some of them have been in my league for all 7 seasons.  I started out with only 5 teams in my first season, but somehow ended up with 16 by the start of season number 5.  Not sure that was the best move on my part. 😊 I'm 69 now and started this season in 2018, so it will be interesting to see if I'm still around to see the end of it! 😊 (My wife says I'd better be!)  Your league sounds like fun, but I just can't bring myself to install rebound nets and since I'm playing on a 4'x2' field, my kickers don't always reach the endzone.😊

That's awesome Rick! I'm hoping these guys last me a couple of decades at least, but you know how finicky plastic can be. 😁 I hope you can get many more seasons completed in your future. 👍

I'd be interested in seeing some samples of your stats. I'm planning on making a Spreadsheet with stats on it, and at the end of the week I'll review my footage and tally them accordingly. Some of them should be obvious (Completions, Attempts, TDs, Ints, etc) but stuff that is more granular (like during a combo sack, which guy ACTUALLY made contact first, right?) and anything involving yardages will probably need more scrutiny. I don't want to have to take a break between each play and jot down every single thing, and my memory is pretty bad even at my age. 😣

As for the rebound nets, I've thought about that as well- I'll have a 42" board, and Kickoffs will be from the Endzone like Arena Ball, so the nets will probably be more for field goals than KOs and Punts. I'm definitely only setting up nets on one Endzone if I do use them, because honestly I never got the point of rotating Endzones each quarter on an Indoor Football field when there's no wind to account for, and an Electric Field is as indoor as you can get (unless I position a hairdryer or desk fan behind my board, and why would I be that foolish?) 😁

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Paul. There is no right or wrong way to play your games. Personally, I've always played using a set number of plays per quarter. I started out using 12 plays, then went to 15 and finally settled on 20.  I found this the ideal number for me as I also like to keep stats and 20 plays per quarter gave me the optimum results I was looking for. (My plays don't include kick offs. Those are separate) I can usually play 1 quarter a night (1 game during a work week) and 1 full game on a weekend. I use this sheet. Kick offs are kept on the right. As an example, if I was playing a game between the Rams and Raiders, I would use RM to designate Rams and RA or RD for Raiders. In this case, say the Rams kicked to the Raiders and #33 returned the ball 27 yards to the 28 yard line. KT is the team the ball is  kicked to, so I would put a RD in the first box. NO is the number of the player who returned the ball, so you would put 33 there. YDS is yards, so 27 goes there. YDL is yard line, so that would be 28 and TER is territory, so that would be a RD for Raiders. If there was a penalty on that play, I put a note underneath with PEN for penalty and either + or - and the amount of yards. If the team scored a touchdown, then I put a TD6 or TD7 or TD8 in the YDL box (Depending on if the extra point was good or not or if the team went for the 2 point conversion). Now let's say that #30 ran for 8 yards on the first play and was tackled by #85 of the Rams. You would put a 2 in the DO (Down) box as it is now 2nd down. YTG is yards to go, so a 2 goes there as it is second  and two. #30 goes in the NO box as he is the person who ran with the ball. 8 in the YDS box because he got 8 yards. 85 in the TAC (tackle) box because he made the tackle. If nobody made the tackle then I put a - there. If 2 players made the tackle, I squeeze both numbers there. 36 is the YDL (Yard line) RD as it is still in Raider territory and R for a run play. For a pass completion, do the same only use the NO as the receivers number and I put the quarterbacks number in the P/R box. If both tams have the same QB#, I put the teams initials under the box to make it easier to tell which QB is which.  If the pass is incomplete, I put INC in the YDS box and give the tackle credit to the defender closest to the receiver. I know they don't usually get credit for a tackle, but I give it to them anyways. For interceptions, I put the number of the defender who intercepted the ball in the NO box and INT in the TAC box.  If the team scores a touchdown on the play, I put TD6, TD7 or TD8 in the TAC box and G in the YDL box and a - in the YTG box. Field goals are the same, except a FG3 goes in the YDL box. For a Safety, I put SAF2 in the YDL box and give credit to the tackler. On an interception that was returned for a TD, I put TD6, & or 8 in the YDL box. For all scores, I highlite the score. On change of possessions, I make a nice, thick border between plays so I know there was a change of possession. For a Penalty, I put PEN in the tackle box and whatever the penalty yards are in the yds box. On fumbles, I put FUM under the tackler's number and make a side note if someone returned the fumble . It's not a perfect system, but It's what I have been using for many years. After the games, I use a blank sheet and tabulate the yards for each player and tackles. completions and incompletes etc.I don't use time outs, but you could easily add a T/O somewhere if you wanted to. Hope this helps.

copy of eflstat.jpg

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Ravenna Al, that's perfect! I needed to see a template to get me pointed in the right direction. I think the only thing I might do a little different is to spread this out over a couple different sections or sheets, just so I can keep Offense, Defense, and Special Teams stats separate.

I'm going to work on a rough draft of my league handbook this weekend, so stay tuned! All my figures have arrived, and my sheet metal should be shipping today. I'm so excited! 😁

Link to comment
Share on other sites

*WARNING: STAT NERD TALK BELOW. ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK*

 

My 7 man league will have a 3 Rusher/3 Blockers/6 Covers max Rule, so I will also have a couple unique Defensive stats that I want to record: Standard Sacks, Overload Sacks, and Coverage Sacks. These will probably be what I take the most time to determine after some postgame reviews. 😆

* Standard Sacks are just good old fashioned Blitzer-beat-the-Blocker sacks, and DO count against the "Sacks Allowed" stat, which is charged to the nearest Blocker. Unlike the NFL, up to 3 men can get a standard sack, and are tallied with corresponding fractions of a sack (1 sack, 1/2 sack, or 1/3 sack).

* Overloads are tallied when the Defense sends more blitzers (typically all 3) than there are Blockers (typically only 2), and is not counted against "Sacks Allowed", because technically the O-Line did its job.

* Coverage Sacks are when all Receivers are covered, and the QB is therefore sacked after a couple of board on/offs (still tweaking this definition as I go, but this is what I'm going with for now). All men in coverage get a corresponding fraction of a sack alongside the Blitzer(s) that made the actual sack (i.e. 1/6th, 1/5th, etc. of a sack for each man in coverage, and a full/half/third sack for the D-linemen). I'm debating on whether this should be charged against the O-Line's "Sacks Allowed" tally or not, as it's technically the QBs fault for not scrambling quicker. 🤔

Fellow stat-nerds, any thoughts or suggestions? 😁

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Excellent, keep the stat sheet examples coming folks! 😁 I'm going to set up a couple mock-ups on Excel this weekend and see what I like and what's just clutter (on my end, of course) and go from there. I currently only have 200 players in my entire League, so I can probably consolidate a few stats to separate tabs on the same Excel document.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Paul, See Sample Packers Team Sheets.xlsx.  This is the team tab for the Packers in my current season.  I have one Excel file with tabs for each team.  I print the team tab for each game and record the results of each play on the sheet, using tick marks for holding, sacks, sacks allowed, tackles, assists, first downs, touchdowns, etc. I write in the number of yards rushing, receiving, passing, kick and punt returns, etc. for each play.  At the end of the game I tally each category and update the team sheet.  The Packers' sheet shows the totals after 4 games.  Each player's stats are linked to another tab that lists his stats for each season, so I can see their career stats.  Hopefully, this helps.  Note that i don't track 1/2 sacks. Anyone in contact with the Qb when he is sacked gets a full sack and the blocker gets a sack allowed. Also, I give anyone in contact with the sacker an assist.  Hurries are tallied when a player hits the qb after he releases the ball. I also give pass rushers credit for being double teamed and note offensive lineman who have been "helped" on pass plays. I give credit for great plays on offense a)  if a player makes a block that springs a runner for a first down or a carry over 10 yards, b) catches a pass when double teamed.  On defense, great plays include dropping a ball carrier for a loss or no gain (the blocker gets assessed a missed block), beating a double-team block to make the tackle, or making a touchdown saving tackle.  I tally passes defensed as follows:  a) the defender covering a receiver on an incomplete pass, b) the defenders covering the primary and/or secondary receiver if the ball is thrown to someone else (each of my pass patterns has a primary and secondary receiver assigned), c) all pass defenders if there is a coverage sack. On special teams, great plays are given to all blockers on a kick return over 30 yards and punt return over 20 yards, to individuals making touchdown saving tackles, and beating a double-team to make a tackle. Missed blocks are given to the blocker assigned to the player tackling the return man. I know this is a lot, but it has worked for me over the years.  At the end of the season, I have the statistics I need to determine All-Pro and Pro Bowl players for offense, defense, and special teams.  If you have any questions, just drop me a line.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rick, that's a great system. Thanks for sharing. I like the fact that you also indicated Depth Chart position. I was going to make a whole separate Depth Chart Sheet but I think I'll use your version instead.

The All-star stats is another great idea that I wouldn't have thought of. It's really hard to get stats for some positions, so I like that idea. The big guys up front definitely deserve something more than Pancakes and Sacks allowed. 😁

On a side note, "Majik" Don and Chmura on the Taxi Squad? Ouch....I mean I totally agree, but it still shocked me especially knowing how prideful/jerkish those guys are in Real Life. 😆

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Paul, Glad I was able to help. Feel free to take whatever works for you. Yeah, Majik and Chmura probably wouldn't be happy, but I couldn't put them over the other guys. I had a really hard time deciding whether the starter would be Favre or Starr (Bart was the starter for my previous 6 seasons), and Dickey was a starter for 8 years with the Packers.  Majkowski was good, but only made it through one entire season of the four he started.  Couldn't start Chmura over Coffman or Kramer.  However, Chmura is actually the third string TE.  He is on the taxi squad because he is hurt.  That's what the numbers in red are for - How long (1Game), how many minutes (11) into what quarter (4) against what team (LARams).  Injuries vary from one series, 1 quarter, 2 quarters, 3 quarters, 1 game, 5 games, 10 games, 1 season, career.  Knock on wood, I've never had anyone knocked out for a career.  😊 Injuries and their durations are determined depending on how many players make the tackle and how many are assisting them. A couple dice rolls determine whether it's the offensive or defensive player, or both, and whether it's the ball carrier, blocker, or both that is injured.  That's why I developed the code in red - so I could tell when I could re-activate the injured player and de-activate his replacement back to the taxi squad.  I usually don't de-activate a player unless he will miss more than half of the next game. Just another goofy system I use. 😊

Edited by RickLM30
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nope, players don't usually fall over on my board.  Guess I'm not running them fast enough. 😊 It depends on how many defenders tackle the ball carrier and how many are assisting the tacklers.  For instance if two guys tackle the ball carrier and two assist the tackle, someone is hurt for the remainder of that drive.  If there are two tacklers and four guys assisting, someone is hurt for a full quarter.  If three guys tackle the ball carrier and two are assisting, then someone is hurt for a half.  It progresses from there - 3&3=3 quarters, 3&4= 1 game, 4&1=5 games, 4&2= 10 games, 5&2= season, 6&3= career.  Any other combinations, no one is hurt. No real rhyme or reason for it, other than the longer injury periods correspond with more guys making the initial tackle.  It works ok for me, I get to use some of my second and third teamers and taxi squad guys at times, which affect the offenses and defenses - adds some variety.   I determine who is hurt by rolling 2 six-sided dice twice.  The first dice roll  determines offense (odd) or defense (even) or both (2/12), the second roll determines which player -  blocker on offense/assister on defense (odd), ball carrier on offense/tackler on defense (even) or both (2/12).  I know it sounds complicated, but I have a chart which makes it pretty simple to figure out.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, I can imagine a lot of those sized hits would lead to some injuries, and that 6&3 would probably get someone Theismanned. 😳

I definitely want to utilize my full rosters, so I was kicking around the idea of having mandatory "cool offs" after big hits or extra long running/receiving plays in lieu of hardcore "injuries". I know in real life, the QB that got his helmet knocked off will probably be evaluated for a concussion, and that 240lb powerback that just ran 63 yards is probably going to sub out for a play or two to grab a Gatorade and an Oxygen machine. 😆

I know some coaches count fallen non-ballcarriers/non-blocking players as injuries, fallen ballcarriers as fumbles, and fallen tacklers/blockers as simply being trucked or pancaked. I was kind of learning towards just counting them as Pancakes/Trucks if they are engaged, and as being clumsy if they are not. 😊

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've got so many players on my rosters from a 40-year span in the NFL, that I like to give them all a chance to play, at least once in awhile.  I get why a lot of coaches would rather play with their starters - that's why they are starters.   I developed my injury system before the NFL developed the namby-pamby concussion protocol (just kidding) and before guys would come out because they were winded from running. 😊 However, i may have to re-think that now. As I said before, I don't really have guys fall over - not sure if it's because I run my field too slow or because all my players are too nimble on their feet!  😊 That's the great thing about this game, you can pretty  much decide for yourself how you want to do things.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh yeah, that's a good point. I'm currently limited to 25 players/team with a depth of only 2-3 players per position (playing 7 man, of course) so I'm a lot more inclined to avoid any super long term injuries, but if I had 4 decades of players they'd be pretty strapped for playing time. That said, I'm not super attached to starters by any means and would definitely like to get all 25 guys on field at some point in the game. 😊

Your boards must be pretty good and not full of hotspots/deadzones. I've seen some horrors out there on YouTube. 😆 I'm hopeful my new board doesn't cause a lot of falling over either, especially since I'm going to do some weight adjustments on the bases to make them more centered- all I have currently are the non-proline TTCs, which I've just learned are prone to toppling if you don't tweak/weight them just right.

I'll have to look into a better injury system than just one-drive "Cool-Offs", so I think yours is going to be what I derive it from, albeit with smaller numbers. 😊

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I've got 53 man teams plus 20 taxi squadders, although the taxi squadders are really there to cover for injured players. I still like to keep my starters in unless it's a blow out, in which case I usually make wholesale substitutions.  Otherwise, the players get upset with a lack of playing time. 😊 You have different issues with 7 positions and 25 man teams.  I'd say you definitely need to adjust the numbers I use for injuries, unless you have guys sneaking off the bench to get in on the plays! 😊

I guess I've been pretty lucky with my  boards - haven't had a lot of problems with hot spots.  My new 4'x2' board works pretty well with 2 motors, although I used No Dave's suggestion and put the motors on top of the board and ran it to see where the best placement was before sticking them under the board. Until this season, I only used 1 clip rookie bases, but now I have a few double clips.  I never liked the TTC bases, mainly because I think they are too big and since I use a multi-stop system, I don't have a need for guys running around in circles.😊 I haven't tried weighting the bases either, but after viewing the 2018 FAT8 APW chart you put on the weight page, I may have to give that a try.  Looks like it could be interesting.

Edited by RickLM30
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, you have a whole training camp of a roster! I like the injury replacement concept though; I always thought the NFL should just extend the rosters to like 60+ players and have a bigger practice squad, even of they kept the current 46 man game day roster. If they were really concerned about concussions, they should be all over that, but I digress. 🤔

I was actually just reading NO Dave's post about that yesterday, I'm definitely going to try that out. I know my board is smaller, but I still think it will need 2 motors. 😁

I originally bought the TTCs because I wanted to run routes, but using a multi stop set up I realized that angling the players between stops would accomplish 99% of the same thing. So I might break down and snag some double clip Rookie bases or Invisibases.

Jamie's YouTube channel is pretty good, and his FAT8 system is well documented; some of his solitaire stuff plays a bit too much like Dungeons and Dragons for my taste, but overall it's a great starting point for newbies like me. 😁

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with you about the NFL and concussions.  They've been really slow coming around.

No Dave's post really was a good one.  It really  worked for me.  

I started out with rookie bases and a multi-stop system way back in the 60s, so I never really felt the need to have TTC bases.  I bought a few to test them out, but as I said earlier, they seemed too clunky and I was able to angle my players at each stop, so the TTC's weren't really something I wanted to use.  I realize I am pretty much a minority in that viewpoint and that's ok.  That's what's great about this game, you can decide for yourself what works for you.

Wow, I'm so old I remember when Dungeons and Dragons first came out - but enough of that.  Yeah, I try to minimize dice rolls as much as possible, but there are a few areas where I couldn't figure out a better way of doing things.  I never really thought about weighting the players at all, let alone based on position.  It sounds like a good idea.  I'll have to experiment with that.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's definitely the best part for me too. I'm not typically a "control freak" in my regular life, but this game is very customizable and seems like a great way to live out some level of control without angering the wife/girlfriend/boss/kids. 😁

If you're interested in further detail, here's a link to the YouTube playlist of the FAT8 system. It has some sections that elaborate on the weighting system along with his injury system, Morale system, etc. I've also attached the complete document, effective as of 2018.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL62EpYEO7k_fpkgAXwBMISdMSY5hB5SX4

Updated FAT8 Football Rules Standard 032318.pdf

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

Posting Guidelines

Please follow the Rules to ensure that the forums promote fun and productive conversations. We value the free flow of information. We can't offer that in what we believe to be an unsafe or illegal environment. See the section on "Selling Unlicensed Products and/or Services". Failure to comply with these rules may result in a ban from the forums. 

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Please review our Terms of Use.