New situation

[Greg F]

Solitaire coaches,

I have a situation I didn’t anticipate when setting my rules for the season.

What do y’all do when an offensive guard falls on QB in the pocket?

[Curt]

If the QB is not down, I let him move as best as possible. If the QB is knocked over too, he is considered down and the next play resumes at his furthest forward gain if that makes sense. 

[Greg F]

18 minutes ago, Curt said:

If the QB is not down, I let him move as best as possible. If the QB is knocked over too, he is considered down and the next play resumes at his furthest forward gain if that makes sense. 

Thanks!  The defensive players were actually pushing the offensive lineman back into him.  Not sure if there is any place to give relief.  How do you handle that situation?

[Greg F]

Here is the actual situation on camera

[Coach Shawn]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

If the QB is not down, I let him move as best as possible. If the QB is knocked over too, he is considered down and the next play resumes at his furthest forward gain if that makes sense. 

In my league When a receiver falls he can stand back up and he is still a valid target, however, the orange stick is added to whatever passing stick is called for.   For the fallen QB the same rule would apply.  So the QB could still pass but the orange stick would increase the ball marker placement.  

Now you have me thinking..,should the QB that has been placed upright be allowed to run with the ball?  I’ll have to think about that.

[Coach Shawn]

17 minutes ago, Greg F said:

Here is the actual situation on camera

It looks like your QB is in a freeze frame, thus “standstill “.   This helps see all the implications. 
The fallen player is effectively “blocking” and preventing the sack (and likely a safety).

I do not remove fallen players.   If this was my league the QB is still free to pass if he has an open receiver.

If he cannot or chooses not to pass (a safety is cheaper than a pick six) then it is a coverage sack.  Since he is in the pocket he cannot throw the ball away.

[Greg F]

8 minutes ago, Coach Shawn said:

It looks like your QB is in a freeze frame, thus “standstill “.   This helps see all the implications. 
The fallen player is effectively “blocking” and preventing the sack (and likely a safety).

I do not remove fallen players.   If this was my league the QB is still free to pass if he has an open receiver.

If he cannot or chooses not to pass (a safety is cheaper than a pick six) then it is a coverage sack.  Since he is in the pocket he cannot throw the ball away.

I think I agree with this.  He has an open man.  It’s 4 & 25, and the Vikings are down 2 TDs in 4th quarter.   So, this is a perfect time to clarify the rule.  
 

It would suck making this call in a close game.  

Edited September 22, 2023 by Greg F

[Coach Shawn]

Another factor would be what kind of scrambling rules you have.

My rule is once the offense stops the field to check for an open receiver then the QB must pass, which may be a throwaway pass if he is out of the pocket, or he can choose to run the ball.  The QB cannot be pivoted to run.  The defense is allowed to pivot all non-engaged figures.

[Greg F]

Cousins ended up completing to Addison for a 22 yard gain, short of 25 needed.  Turnover on downs.  Saints won 45-28.

[Daryl Collins]

Who Dat!?! Great thread, Coaches! I’ve never had this situation before but if I ever do this is helpful!

[Greg F]

I’ve decided specifics on rule going forward.

“If the defensive player is the cause of the offensive lineman falling over and into the QB, then there will be a flip as to whether the QB falls or stays upright.  If he stays upright, he can scramble (if possible) or throw.”

I think this is what I’m most comfortable with.  

[Coach Shawn]

21 minutes ago, Greg F said:

“If the defensive player is the cause of the offensive lineman falling over and into the QB, then there will be a flip as to whether the QB falls or stays upright.  If he stays upright, he can scramble (if possible) or throw.”

Nice, it potentially rewards the defender for an outstanding hit, but leaves room for the QBs athleticism to avoid falling.

[zak99b5]

Since the fallen O-lineman is preventing the defender from making the sack, I think I'd be inclined to call that "holding."  Lose ten yards, replay the down.

[Terry43]

9 hours ago, zak99b5 said:

I'd be inclined to call that "holding." 

"In gridiron football, holding is the illegal use of the hand or arm to restrain another player who is not in possession of the ball." Wikipedia

TOEPRO rules state:

Quote

• Use his hands or arms to materially restrict an opponent or alter the defender’s path or angle of pursuit. It is a foul regardless of whether the blocker’s hands are inside or outside the frame of the defender’s body. Material restrictions include but are not limited to:

Hooking an opponent; or turning him.

Pushing a teammate, not a RUNNER, to advance while engaged with defender.

Penalty: For holding by the offense: Loss of 10 yards.

In the Solitaire & Referee TOEPRO rulebook (which is located in the MORE tab) Holding is defined as,

Quote

Either team directs a player whose arm hooks or holds the opposing player by use of the upper extremities and prevents him from going up field or to tackle in offensive backfield. (Rule 12-1)

So, looking at the picture, the offensive lineman is using his base, not "the upper extremities," to block the Saints' defensive linemen. Blocking with the base is normal. Blocking with the bottom of the base isn't normal, but by rule, not a penalty. 😃👍

Enjoy the Journey.    T43.    ⚡🏈♾️

[Curt]

Hello Sir Greg F., 
In LATE response to your post:   Thanks!  The defensive players were actually pushing the offensive lineman back into him.  Not sure if there is any place to give relief.  How do you handle that situation? 
The picture really helps so let me take this through its possibilities. I do not allow passes on troubled run plays as throwing a ball away is not an option. With the QB still on his feet, and the defense still pushing the line back for this one, let's say everyone is at mid field. The play is allowed to continue pushing as far back as the offense allows as the offense is allowed to stop progress on any play at any time. If the offense is lucky and the QB [or ball carrier] breaks free somehow to turn up field, the play continues then until the ball carrier scores, goes out of bounds or is tackled. 
In the picture, the player with the arms up in a running position [assuming he is the QB] is actually touching the player behind him with his arms wide open and that gives the QB [or ball carrier] the option for an automatic lateral to keep the play going. If they were not touching, the QB [or ball carrier] would have to risk pitching a lateral to anyone behind him if desired. 
If a missed pitchback hits any other player, that player is the ball carrier. If the ball just hits the board or stops within 10 yards of any player, then all available players may be turned to try and recover what is considered a fumble at the spot of contact or the ball's resting spot if that makes sense and again if the offense recovers it, they are allowed to stop play progress but not be turned up field unless they do so on their own. If the defense gets to it first without being tackled, they may continue running until tackled, out of bounds, or scores.
Ok, now onto the picture being shown near the offenses end zone with the QB still on his feet. If it is a pass play and the QB has a valid receiver, he may throw it to him. If there is no available receiver, then the QB must get out of the end zone or successfully orchestrate a lateral to avoid a safety. Hope this all makes sense and wasn't too long but it is all a part of my weirdness as to how I would handle that situation. Great question. Blessings to all, Coach Curt.

[Greg F]

On 9/23/2023 at 2:32 PM, Curt said:

Hello Sir Greg F., 
In LATE response to your post:   Thanks!  The defensive players were actually pushing the offensive lineman back into him.  Not sure if there is any place to give relief.  How do you handle that situation? 
The picture really helps so let me take this through its possibilities. I do not allow passes on troubled run plays as throwing a ball away is not an option. With the QB still on his feet, and the defense still pushing the line back for this one, let's say everyone is at mid field. The play is allowed to continue pushing as far back as the offense allows as the offense is allowed to stop progress on any play at any time. If the offense is lucky and the QB [or ball carrier] breaks free somehow to turn up field, the play continues then until the ball carrier scores, goes out of bounds or is tackled. 
In the picture, the player with the arms up in a running position [assuming he is the QB] is actually touching the player behind him with his arms wide open and that gives the QB [or ball carrier] the option for an automatic lateral to keep the play going. If they were not touching, the QB [or ball carrier] would have to risk pitching a lateral to anyone behind him if desired. 
If a missed pitchback hits any other player, that player is the ball carrier. If the ball just hits the board or stops within 10 yards of any player, then all available players may be turned to try and recover what is considered a fumble at the spot of contact or the ball's resting spot if that makes sense and again if the offense recovers it, they are allowed to stop play progress but not be turned up field unless they do so on their own. If the defense gets to it first without being tackled, they may continue running until tackled, out of bounds, or scores.
Ok, now onto the picture being shown near the offenses end zone with the QB still on his feet. If it is a pass play and the QB has a valid receiver, he may throw it to him. If there is no available receiver, then the QB must get out of the end zone or successfully orchestrate a lateral to avoid a safety. Hope this all makes sense and wasn't too long but it is all a part of my weirdness as to how I would handle that situation. Great question. Blessings to all, Coach Curt.

QB is actually the sprinter figure.  The defensive player know him over into the WB’s legs.  The picture indicates where the OH ended up, but it doesn’t show the action of his he fell over.  
 

The OL was overpowered on the play.  QB was not going any further.

[Greg F]

On 9/22/2023 at 11:29 AM, zak99b5 said:

Since the fallen O-lineman is preventing the defender from making the sack, I think I'd be inclined to call that "holding."  Lose ten yards, replay the down.

Which would be a safety in this example.  
 

But, I’m not sure that I like the concepts of holding for a player who was basically “best” by the DL.

 

Not saying you’re wrong at all.  But, it just doesn’t feel right to me.  

[Greg F]

On 9/22/2023 at 11:29 AM, zak99b5 said:

Since the fallen O-lineman is preventing the defender from making the sack, I think I'd be inclined to call that "holding."  Lose ten yards, replay the down.

My only problem with that is that the defensive player dominated the OG.  Though that may be a rule in some rule books, I don’t believe he technically held him.  He fell down and got in the way.  
 

But…  did the fall into the legs cause the QB to lose his balance on the play.  It’s kind of imagination…. Like a player getting hit from behind causing a fumble. 

 

[Greg F]

On 9/22/2023 at 11:27 AM, Coach Shawn said:

Nice, it potentially rewards the defender for an outstanding hit, but leaves room for the QBs athleticism to avoid falling.

I have decided this is what feels best for my solitaire league.

I respect the opinions of everyone who has replied so far.  They’ve all given me different perspectives to consider.  Although I decided against the holding call, I do thing that would be a very valid decision as well.  

[zak99b5]

My rationale for thinking that's offensive holding:

The OL player is "unnaturally" preventing the defender from sacking the QB. It's unnatural because he's not standing up. 

Of you say it's ok because it's not an arm, then what's to prevent a coach from setting up linemen laying down from the start?

I get the whole "realism" part of the tie pro rule about a figure's arm, but these are just static figures. Holding in real football kinda requires that the guilty party do something extra to hold. 

The OL is doing something extra (lying down) to stop the defender's rushing the passer. 
 

 

[Terry43]

6 hours ago, zak99b5 said:

what's to prevent a coach from setting up linemen laying down from the start?

It would be very difficult to run the ball if the offensive line isn't pushing up field.  That's enough to stop me. 🛑

6 hours ago, zak99b5 said:

these are just static figures

Indeed, they are little plastic peeps. I think calling our football game Miniature Football is a lot like like calling Risk, Miniature War, 💂‍♂️  or calling Monopoly, Miniature Capitalism. 🏭  There are similarities but I think you hit the nail on the head when you wrote,

6 hours ago, zak99b5 said:

Holding in real football kinda requires that the guilty party do something extra

Little plastic peeps don't cheat. They don't feel guilty. Greg F didn't tip over the offensive lineman to prevent a safety. There's no guilty party.

The little plastic peep got caught on the crest of a reinforced vibration and fell over.  Happens all the time. 

Of course, this is coming from a coach who doesn't have any penalties 👮‍♂️  in his solitaire league.

Enjoy the Journey   T43   ⚡🏈♾️

[Greg F]

On 9/27/2023 at 3:29 PM, zak99b5 said:

My rationale for thinking that's offensive holding:

The OL player is "unnaturally" preventing the defender from sacking the QB. It's unnatural because he's not standing up. 

Of you say it's ok because it's not an arm, then what's to prevent a coach from setting up linemen laying down from the start?

I get the whole "realism" part of the tie pro rule about a figure's arm, but these are just static figures. Holding in real football kinda requires that the guilty party do something extra to hold. 

The OL is doing something extra (lying down) to stop the defender's rushing the passer. 
 

 

I totally see your point.  In the end zone, this would be a safety either way.  However, in any other part of the field, offensive holding would be loss of yardage, but no loss of down.  In my mind, I think the defensive player made a great play that’s worthy of loss of down.

Again, I can totally see it your way as well.

[Greg F]

On 9/27/2023 at 10:02 PM, Terry43 said:

It would be very difficult to run the ball if the offensive line isn't pushing up field.  That's enough to stop me. 🛑

Indeed, they are little plastic peeps. I think calling our football game Miniature Football is a lot like like calling Risk, Miniature War, 💂‍♂️  or calling Monopoly, Miniature Capitalism. 🏭  There are similarities but I think you hit the nail on the head when you wrote,

Little plastic peeps don't cheat. They don't feel guilty. Greg F didn't tip over the offensive lineman to prevent a safety. There's no guilty party.

The little plastic peep got caught on the crest of a reinforced vibration and fell over.  Happens all the time. 

Of course, this is coming from a coach who doesn't have any penalties 👮‍♂️  in his solitaire league.

Enjoy the Journey   T43   ⚡🏈♾️

Only penalty I really have is if an OL gets hit on pass instead of eligible receiver,  I may call defensive holding if blatant.

I totally understand zak’s philosophy.  I just prefer giving the DL credit for pushing the OL back into the QB.  Of course, with the rule on which I decided, the QB has a 50% of of staying on his feet.

I have loved all the different perspectives I’ve received on this thread!

[zak99b5]

Agreed--good thread with good thoughts. I get a lot out of reading other people's rules and play style, and I have incorporated quite a few.